[Lasa] [Erip] Manuela Picq - beaten by the police?

Sab Ago 22 01:35:36 PDT 2015

Dear Leon, 

While I agree that this is not the subject at hand, and my intention has not to been to sidetrack the specific focus. Yet, in your insistence that Manuela was treated with a certain decency by the police and on seeing a video that shows fists and batons landing on Manuela, I could not help but to think of what might be behind that. I quickly recalled your ERIP presentation and the questions and answer session that followed, all of which made a profound impact on me. So I thank you for sending me/us on your talk. 

In reviewing it, it is indeed what I remembered hearing and taking many notes about that year at ERIP. It was a very heated paper in the context of just a bit over three months after the Yasuni-ITT plan was scrapped, and as Correa himself was claiming that Indigenous leaders are not (capable of) thinking for themselves, lumping all sectors' opposition under the rumerick of 'los tira piedras' (apparently the same unthreatening rock throwers capable of taking down the Plaza de Independencia last week and thus the need to pack it with police wearing war gear). 

Anyway, I am sure that I did not invent anything from scratch, and unfortunately I do not have my notebook where I quoted you during your question and answer with me. I am positive, 100%, that you said that this was a citizens revolution and not an Indigenous one. 

And as far as using the term "tira piedras", you are right on that one. It felt it was clearly implicit, but l do apologize because you did not say it explicitly. In fact I think my question to you started something like, "In your presentation I heard you say the all the same discourses of the government with the exception of 'tira piedras'..." It was during the questions and answers that you said that there was no alternative to extractivismo.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 22, 2015, at 12:34 AM, Leon Zamosc <lzamosc en ucsd.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hello Juli - Are you sure you are not confusing me with someone else? Fortunately I have the texts of all my papers (I am attaching it) and while it is true that I mention the "fundamentalismo radical de algunas corrientes ecologistas occidentales postmodernas" (note the qualification "algunas" - as a rule, I try to avoid absolute statements); the "tira-piedras" and the rest are your contribution. By the way, while I do not say it in the paper, I do think that Ecuador and Bolivia today and at least in the near future do not have many economic policy alternatives different from what we are seeing with Correa and Morales. But please note that  this is not the issue under discussion.
> 
> Thank you also for questioning my motives by painting me as a Correista. It perfectly illustrates the point I will make.
> 
> I am sorry, but I cannot say good bye with an uplifting slogan like yours. In any case, while I didn't expect that it would be like this, I am beginning to enjoy my new "reacccionario" identity.
> 
> Leon
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: jahaze en gmail.com [jahaze en gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 9:25 PM
> To: Leon Zamosc
> Cc: Marc Becker; lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org; erip en lists.ethnicityrace.org
> Subject: Re: [Lasa] [Erip]  Manuela Picq - beaten by the police?
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> The problem with claiming objectivity is that often s/he who claim that this is the goal does not reveal her/his political positions. Ecuador, with its 2008 constitutional foundation, is a plurinational country, and thus, any revolution should support and be based in plurinationality.
> 
> Leon, I am not trying to be disrespectful or attacking, but instead transparent. In your presentation in the ERIP conference in Oaxaca in 2013, I was present when you claimed that no viable financial alternative to extractionism (mining and petroleum) was being proposed in Ecuador and that the 'revolution' in Ecuador is not an Indigenous revolution, but instead a citizens revolution. I was left perplexed by the presentation that repeated such phrases as "los medioambientalistas radicales" y "los tira piedras": In a plurinational country, are Indigenous peoples not also recognized as essential and indispensable constituents of the citizenry, and for that matter, the state?
> 
> Now many of both groups-- citizens and indigenous peopleS--have headed to the streets. Various sectors of civil society are claiming rights to free speech, demonstrating--in the name of a plurinational Sumak Kawsay--the right to say no to extractive projects without consultation, demanding the right to vote on major political decisions, and standing up for other critical issues outlined in the constitution. There is a particular social movement in the works, and social movements push for social change for both citizens and peopleS, no?
> 
> Then some one like Manuela, partner of a major Indigenous actor questioning the  government's 'revolution' currently "en marcha", is beaten and incarcerated. Even if what has unfolded is right before our eyes, I would like to ask this: Considering the very political, purposely silencing context of the 'citizen's revolution' of the recent years in Ecuador, to what degree do we actually need to see the bloody proof of such events?
> 
> Constitutional rights are often not being applied or respected in Ecuador in the moment. From where I stand here in Ecuador, having lived here for the past four years, this is abundantly clear to me. And I think that the other 10,000 people who hit the streets on the 13th may be seeing something similar. Many of these people were the same ones who voted "Si!"! for the 2008 constitution and who had high hopes of its application.
> 
> Hasta la victoria (plurinacional) siempre,
> 
> Juli Hazlewood
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 9:18 PM, Leon Zamosc <lzamosc en ucsd.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Marc - As I explained in my first message, this video does not show the police beating her: it shows them taking Manuela away from the melee and then restraining her when,  at one point, she tries to go back.  I do not see batons or fists landing on her. Actually the police seems to be making a point of helping, picking up her stuff from the pavement and handing it to back to her.
>> Leon
>> 
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Marc Becker [marc en yachana.org]
>> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 6:50 PM
>> To: Leon Zamosc
>> Subject: Re: [Erip] [Lasa] Manuela Picq - beaten by the police?
>> 
>> hi Leon, I'm confused by your message because the like to the videos in
>> your email below are the ones that show the police beating Manuela. And
>> she also describes various places being beaten. What exactly are you
>> looking for if this video is not it?
>> 
>> thanks--marc.
>> 
>>> On 8/21/15 6:27 PM, Leon Zamosc via Erip wrote:
>>> Dear all – I intend to circulate an email elaborating on my point about the roles of researchers in the field and explaining why I thought that it was advisable to watch the long video of the incident in its enterity.
>>> 
>>> Before I do it, however, I wanted to ask again whether anyone is aware of the existence of a video showing Manuela Picq being beaten by the police. If such video exists I will be able to finally shut my mouth and leave myself in peace.
>>> 
>>> All best,
>>> Leon
>>> 
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Erip [erip-bounces en lists.ethnicityrace.org] on behalf of Leon Zamosc via Erip [erip en lists.ethnicityrace.org]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 11:46 PM
>>> To: De La Torre, Carlos
>>> Cc: erip en lists.ethnicityrace.org; lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Erip] [Lasa] Manuela Picq - beaten by the police?
>>> 
>>> Hola otra vez Carlos - En realidad, cuanto mas leo lo que dice Manuela Picq, mas evidente me parece que hay un problema serio de fondo relacionado con las consecuencias de los diferentes tipos de roles que puede asumir un/a investigador/a social.  Y debo agregar que es una problematica muy moderna, mas que postmoderna.
>>> 
>>> En fin, mientras tanto, el video que mencione en mi mensaje inicial:
>>>    http://www.elcomercio.com/video/manuelapiqc-marchas-quito-policia-detencion.html
>>> solo muestra los ultimos 2 minutos de un video mucho mas largo que aun puede verse en la internet:
>>>    http://www.elcomercio.com/video/imagenes-marcha-manifestaciones-centrohistorico-quito.html
>>> Este video, titulado "Imágenes sin editar de las manifestaciones en el Centro Histórico", acompana la protesta por 44 minutos ininterrumpidos hasta culminar con las escenas de las que hemos estado hablando. Lo encuentro sumamente instructivo y revelador del contexto en el cual se dio el incidente. Vale la pena invertir el tiempo en mirarlo con atencion antes de que lo quiten.
>>> 
>>> Saludos, Leon
>>> 
>>> _____________________________________
>>> From: Lasa [lasa-bounces en lists.ecuatorianistas.org] on behalf of De La Torre, Carlos [c.delatorre en uky.edu]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 6:59 AM
>>> To: Silvia Caicedo; ROSAMARIA TORRES
>>> Cc: Manuela L Picq; lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org; erip en lists.ethnicityrace.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Lasa] Manuela Picq - beaten by the police?
>>> 
>>> Colegas por favor lean lo que dice Manuela Picq y dejemos de abusar de la jerga posmoderna de que hay varias verdades, o será que la verdad del poder es mas cierta que la de las víctimas de la represión?
>>> 
>>> http://www.eluniverso.com/noticias/2015/08/19/nota/5075018/se-cayo-imagen-revolucion-ciudadana
>>> 
>>> Carlos de la Torre
>>> Professor, Department of Sociology
>>> University of Kentucky
>>> 1533 Patterson Office Tower
>>> Lexington, KY 40506
>>> 859- 2576891
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Lasa [lasa-bounces en lists.ecuatorianistas.org] on behalf of Silvia Caicedo [scaicedo en gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2015 8:39 AM
>>> To: ROSAMARIA TORRES
>>> Cc: Manuela L Picq; erip en lists.ethnicityrace.org; lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Lasa] Manuela Picq - beaten by the police?
>>> 
>>> And therein lies the problem, one of credibility. Who is telling the truth. As we know there are many truths and discourses that serve many interests. I'm not implying that the police in Ecuador acted appropriately when they arrested Manuela or others, just reminding us that many sectors were present with their own agendas and events are very complex.
>>> It reminds me of the 80s when the social movements were very active and there was a coordinated effort to undermine their work. Really interesting times to keep an eye on Ecuador. The next two years will bring more confrontations as many sectors want see change and social media amplifies the speed with which news spread but at the same time dilutes the perspectives.
>>> On Tuesday, 18 August 2015, ROSAMARIA TORRES <rm.torres en yahoo.com<mailto:rm.torres en yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>> Hi to all.
>>> Just reading this thread. I am Ecuadorian, live in Ecuador and follow the protests closely.
>>> For clarification:
>>> a) the photo with an eye bruise was circulated by someone in Twitter, a few hours later he rectified publicly and said he had consulted with Manuela and the photo did not correspond to Aug 13, but many kept circulating it. As you know, when these things happen, they are almost impossible to stop in social networks.
>>> b) photos and videos of Manuela being beaten by the Police have been circulated by many, including Manuela and her sister.
>>> c) the bulletin by the Ministry of the Interior saying that Manuela had been captured by strangers and "helped" by the police, was questioned by the judge. She said people who fabricated these communications at the Ministry and the Police will be investigated.
>>> Greetings from Quito.
>>> Rosa Maria
>>> 
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Johannes Waldmüller <johannes.waldmuller en graduateinstitute.ch<mailto:johannes.waldmuller en graduateinstitute.ch>>
>>> To: Leon Zamosc <lzamosc en ucsd.edu<mailto:lzamosc en ucsd.edu>>
>>> Cc: Manuela L Picq <manuelapicq en mac.com<mailto:manuelapicq en mac.com>>; "erip en lists.ethnicityrace.org<mailto:erip en lists.ethnicityrace.org>" <erip en lists.ethnicityrace.org<mailto:erip en lists.ethnicityrace.org>>; "lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org<mailto:lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org>" <lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org<mailto:lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org>>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2015 10:12 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Lasa] Manuela Picq - beaten by the police?
>>> 
>>> Dear Leon and All,
>>> 
>>> Thanks for this conversation and thread, it is important to analyze profoundly and correctly the events of these days. But just to add up on this: I don't know, Leon, whether you have been at the march. Also at other occasions and places, the police forces acted or reacted with unduly aggression. On the plaza San Francisco, for example, people where suddenly chased into one corner by horses, biting dogs and clubs - without any reason identifiable - and many where there with babies, families, etc. Not to speak of police drones, visible to everyone, that were used constanly for whatever reason and without and information provided. As anyone knows, drones are able to do much more nowadays than taking pictures...(for example, sniffing wlans, contacts, etc.).
>>> The general atmosphere was heated and tensioned - and sometimes it is important to take the general context into account and not to rely too much on pictures. Correa was not in Quito that night, there was a, perhaps justified, fear of a protesters' coup, reaching the plaza Grande...
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Johannes
>>> 
>>> (Universidad Andina Simon Bolívar)
>>> 
>>> 2015-08-17 15:17 GMT-05:00 Leon Zamosc <lzamosc en ucsd.edu>:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hola Manuela - I am glad to hear from you and thank you for responding so quickly. As I said, in your public declarations (at least the ones I have seen) it was not clear that it was the police that beat you, both you and Carlos were rather vague on that. On the other hand, the video does not show them beating you, what I see is the police restraining you when you try to go back.
>>> Of course, I do not question your word, you may have been beaten off-camera. Right now, we are doing what we can to prevent your deportation. But at some point it would be good to hear more details on how exactly things happened and are happening.
>>> 
>>> All best and I do hope you will be able to stay in Ecuador.
>>> 
>>> Prof. Leon Zamosc
>>> Department of Sociology
>>> University of California, San Diego
>>> 
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Manuela L Picq [manuelapicq en mac.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 12:50 PM
>>> To: Leon Zamosc
>>> Cc: erip en lists.ethnicityrace.org; lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Lasa] Manuela Picq - beaten by the police?
>>> 
>>> We were beaten by the police
>>> We said it repeatedly in the press
>>> And there are videos showing how obvious it is- it was a violent arrest with beatings by police forces of ecuador
>>> In case it was not clear I hope it is now
>>> 
>>> Manuela
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 17, 2015, at 2:21 PM, Leon Zamosc <lzamosc en ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>> 
>>>> I alerted the ERIP mailinglist about the cancellation of Manuela Picq’s visa and I signed the Academicos Solidarios petition “Stop the Deportation of Manuela Picq”  which is still online:
>>>>  https://www.change.org/p/rafael-correa-government-of-ecuador-minister-of-external-relations-ecuador-stop-the-deportation-of-manuela-picq
>>>> 
>>>> One thing that I makes me uncomfortable, however, is the careless emphasis by some colleagues and journalists on the fact that she was beaten by the police. I have been following the declarations of Manuela and Carlos Pérez in press reports and, while they do say that they were attacked, so far they haven’t said that it was by the police. The video that is often cited as proof:
>>>>  http://www.elcomercio.com/video/manuelapiqc-marchas-quito-policia-detencion.html
>>>> does not show the police beating her: it shows them taking Manuela away from the melee and then restraining her when,  at one point, she tries to go back (perhaps worried about Carlos?).  I do not see batons or fists landing on her. Actually the police seems to be making a point of helping, picking up her stuff from the pavement and handing it to back to her.
>>>> 
>>>> Another thing I have seen online is a picture showing Manuela with an eye bruise,
>>>>  http://racismoambiental.net.br/2015/08/15/jornalista-brasileira-e-presa-e-tem-visto-cassado-apos-protesto-no-equador-me-sinto-sequestrada
>>>> but in the latest videos including the one in which she states she has been treated well:
>>>>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O44anl2LVsI
>>>> there are no signs of it. Telesur, which had published, the picture, now says that the allegations claiming the bruises were from the police were disproven:
>>>>  http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Foreign-Academic-Detained-in-Ecuador-Riot-Faces-Deportation-20150816-0010.html
>>>> 
>>>> We must protest her deportation. So far, however, there is no basis to the claim of police violence against Manuela. If and when it comes, we must of course react to it. In the meantime we, as scholars, must be especially attentive to distortion of the facts, which among other things invariably works against, rather than in favor, of indigenous and other good causes.
>>>> 
>>>> Leon
>>>> 
>>>> Prof. Leon Zamosc
>>>> Department of Sociology
>>>> University of California, San Diego
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Lasa mailing list
>>>> Lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org
>>>> http://lists.ecuatorianistas.org/listinfo.cgi/lasa-ecuatorianistas.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lasa mailing list
>>> Lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org
>>> http://lists.ecuatorianistas.org/listinfo.cgi/lasa-ecuatorianistas.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> -----------------------------------------
>>> Dr. Johannes M. Waldmüller
>>> 
>>> Development Studies
>>> THE GRADUATE INSTITUTE | GENEVA
>>> Editorial Board Member: Alternautas
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lasa mailing list
>>> Lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org
>>> http://lists.ecuatorianistas.org/listinfo.cgi/lasa-ecuatorianistas.org
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Lasa mailing list
>>> Lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org
>>> http://lists.ecuatorianistas.org/listinfo.cgi/lasa-ecuatorianistas.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Note: This email is from the Latin American Studies Association section on Ethnicity, Race, and Indigenous Peoples (ERIP), http://www.ethnicityrace.org/. If you do not want to continue receiving ERIP emails, send a message to erip-request en ethnicityrace.org?subject=unsubscribe.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Note: This email is from the Latin American Studies Association section on Ethnicity, Race, and Indigenous Peoples (ERIP), http://www.ethnicityrace.org/. If you do not want to continue receiving ERIP emails, send a message to erip-request en ethnicityrace.org?subject=unsubscribe.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lasa mailing list
>> Lasa en lists.ecuatorianistas.org
>> http://lists.ecuatorianistas.org/listinfo.cgi/lasa-ecuatorianistas.org
> <Zamosc - PONENCIA ERIP OAXACA.docx>